Finding Success at the Intersection of Creativity and Data

Michael Mendenhall: I'm your host, Michael Mendenhall. TriNet is a full-service HR solutions company. We are committed to empowering small, medium sized businesses by supporting their growth. And most important, enabling their people. We work with amazing, and I really mean amazing, small, medium-sized businesses. And I'm excited to bring their voices here to life.

You can catch new episodes every month on Apple, Spotify, Rise.TriNet.com and YouTube. And if you don't know how to spell TriNet, it's T-R-I-N-E-T. We are here on a Thursday, before the weekend, and I'm sure you're all racing off building all your plans, whether they're recreational, whether you're going out shopping or going to restaurants and dining. You're ready to start to get that weekend going. But before you do, I have the pleasure of introducing to you Drew Stein, who is the founder and CEO of Audigent. This is an amazing company—a company that has grown exponentially to over 100 employees. These guys are working with all the major brands that, you know, that are in your household.

He is a serial entrepreneur, Drew, and has successfully founded and built and runs businesses in advertising, production, music, entertainment and branding along with technology. This guy is almost in everything and we're going to find out how he does all of that. He understands the intersection, though, between creativity and data—and the importance of data privacy. And we're going to get more into that today.

And he understands that he wants to build this sort of working environment or virtual ecosystem between digital media, ensuring consumers, publishers and creative content people win. So, all of these people are going to win and we're going to find out all about how he does that and how he balances his time working in all of these different industries.

So let's please welcome Drew. Drew, welcome. It's great to have you. We're so thrilled. Certainly, you've got a lot going on. We have sort of talked a little bit in the intro about all of the different sort of industries you've combined. But more importantly, we want to get into where do you get a start? You know, how did you get into this very interesting background?

Because you started in one industry, moved to another—and certainly very different. Right. But you have skill sets that certainly applied and certainly applied across, you know, your career. So I would love for you to just talk about how did you get into this? I mean, New York City you grew up, and there, you know, people believe you're successful if you're one probably in media because it's a big media hub.

But more importantly, you know, Drew… You know, lawyer finance Wall Street and you got into this and I'd love to hear your story about why you got into finance and how you got into a creative role. And we'll get into some of the specificity around that journey.

Drew Stein: Well, first and foremost, Michael, I am absolutely thrilled to be here with you today. And I appreciate the opportunity to get a chance to talk with you and really just excited to be here and share a little bit more about my story. Yeah, I was born and raised in New York City, in Manhattan.

Michael: And oh, that's interesting. I hope you all caught that, guys. You know, it was New York City, and he didn't say Brooklyn, right? He said Manhattan. You know, there's a lot of rivalries between, you know, all these boroughs in New York. So we appreciate the clarification there.

Drew: Well, Manhattan is certainly the home of Wall Street. And like many kids who grew up here, I had a parent that was in finance. And so I had a pretty narrow lane growing up. And, you know, people knew that you could be a doctor or a lawyer or you could go to Wall Street. And that was something that, you know, was kind of ingrained in me as if it was part of my DNA.

But the truth is, you know, I think my passions had other plans for me and I was very fortunate. So growing up here, my father's very first client and a guy that became like family, almost like a grandfather to me was an artist, an abstract expressionist artist named Esteban Ascente. And so I grew up on one side where I was with my father and everything was about finance in Wall Street.

And on this other side, there was this incredible creative force in my life that was incredibly nurturing and a grandfather figure.

Michael: What type of medium was he and that you're your mentor there.

Drew: So he was one of the premier, you know, collages and abstract expressionist painters from the new school. And to this day, I'm just beyond proud to be a part of his foundation. And it's the most exciting part of the charitable work that I do outside of my day job. So, you know, it was incredible growing up in his studio and being in the back of it and playing in the gardens that he painted.

It was a big part of my childhood. And so I had kind of this dual life, these two father figures in my life, a grandfather figure in my father. And they could not have been more different from one another. And I learned a lot about myself.

Michael: Did your family wonder, like, who is this this other father figure and who is this guy and what is he doing? And why are you spending all your time over there?

Drew: Well, they were our family. Every family gathering they were… I mean, it was literally when my father first hung a shingle, this was the first client that walked in his door. And for 50 years, I knew them as family, not as one of my father's clients.

So I really benefited from having this duality. And it allowed me to kind of develop both sides of my brain and embrace them, frankly, left side by side and lived kind of along that middle purpose.

Michael: How long were you in the financial role? So you went into finance. You're there on Wall Street. Talk about what you were doing there. You know, what was your role and how long were you there before you decided, “You know what? I'm going to follow something that I've been passionate about and that I love.”

Drew: So I, I went to Northwestern, like many kids, got great summer internships. Most of them were actually in the creative side of advertising. And I was very lucky to fall in love with it and be exposed to that too, you know, with those internships. But like many other kids coming out of school, there are these training programs and I think it was almost on a whim, you know, somebody at one of the Wall Street firms, it was CS First Boston said, hey, let's take this creative guy and let's put him in a finance role. And I spent about five years in that capacity working you know, in finance and working on Wall Street before I moved on and decided that.

Michael: Did you do any did you did you have any sort of side hustle with the creative side as you're working on Wall Street? Or was it really just heads down? We're doing finance for now.

Drew: For the first three years, when I was at first Boston it was just full on and I was fully focused and completely immersed in it. But it was after that where I kind of got the itch. I knew something wasn't quite right and I started thinking about being more entrepreneurial. I started thinking about ideas that I was having.

And it was kind of at that moment where I knew it was time to make a transition. And I had been talking to an old mentor, Scott Elias, who ran a music production company called Elias Arts. And I had been an intern for Scott and I had stayed in touch. And he’s still, to this day, one of the great mentors of my life and he was the guy that said, “Okay, let's go.”

And I came back from interning and I came back into his company and the rest of history. I got to embrace a completely different side of who I am, explore not just the entrepreneurial side of what I was interested in doing, but also immerse myself in the creative side.

Michael: Did you have family, friends, who basically were like, “Wait, wait, you're leaving finance and you're going into a creative role doing what with an agency?” You know, most of the time people think, oh, well, the creative world, you know, that's a creative person. I'll put quotes around that because they think there's some abstract thing going on you know, over there with the creative folks and you have something that's more concrete, that's finance.

And did people through that transition say, “What are you doing? You're going to leave this to go take this risky job and creative?”

Drew: Michael, my mother literally cried. I remembered the conversation and we sat down and I said, I'm leaving Wall Street. I'm leaving finance and I'm going to go into the creative side of advertising and my mother just couldn't comprehend that I would make such a leap. And I said it was something I had to do and it was something I was really passionate about.

And I told her I promised her that it was going to work out there. And it certainly has.

Michael: Yeah. You know, when you think about creative, I'd love your opinion on this, but you know, what people don't tend to realize all the time is, you know, in the creative world with the narratives you tell, you can change the world. You can change people's perspectives. You can change people's opinions. You can motivate people and you can touch them in a very personal way.

Do you find that being in the creative world, you feel like you have that ability and that is so much different in leaving a legacy and working on Wall Street?

Drew: Well, I think we move markets. I think the creative side moves markets. It's funny. I think when it comes to messaging and connecting to people, right. It's at the very least, 50% of breaking through when you think about the great campaigns of all time, that's the difference, right? What you know, when you think about Apple, you think of Nike, think of HP, you think of these, you know, the great brands.

You think about the iconic campaigns and the iconic creative that drove their brands and elevated them to, you know, within the minds of all of the consumers and business partners, frankly, and Wall Street, for that matter.

Michael: So I think it's it inspires it. It's aspirational and it also inspires people.

Drew: So, yes. 100%, Michael. It moves markets. It's not an invisible hand. It is a major force that drives the success of companies.

Michael: Well, let's talk about this because you're right in the middle of it. I want you to sort of talk about all the different companies. You've had your fingers into their sort of operations and help create. But then there's one we're going to really talk about called Audigent. But let's talk about all of these things and how you got into these various businesses and where you are today.

Drew: Well, music was my first passion. And, you know, I started at first with Scott Elias and a music production company and then went from music and sound design and audio post. And before we knew it, we had a full post house with editorial and animation and motion graphics. And before you knew that, then we were shooting TV commercials and that's when everything kind of changed.

We were out there and, you know, the first thing that we knew, something was different. Budgets were starting to shift, right? People were budgets that used to be $1,000,000 commercial or all of a sudden getting half right. They went from a million to $500,000. And you start asking yourself, well, what's going on? Why is the market shifting? And digital was this explosive between web and mobile. And now CTV was this absolute the explosive medium where the rules were changing and creativity was fundamentally changing as well. And how creativity got delivered through that medium was starting to change. And so, I started, I guess from the creative side thinking about what I love most and how it is that I can continue to pursue my passions and what's that going to really look like in the future.

And that's when I started thinking about media and ad tech and data. And when I started dabbling for the first time and said, you know something, the world's changing. Devices are changing. Social media is changing the world. And there's this juggernaut out there that's inextricably bound with the creative side and I think these two forces are coming together in a way that's really exciting.

And that's when I started thinking about technology. And what I found was something really surprising, Michael. What I expected to find was something that was very business driven and, you know, technology and an engineer and everything that was very mass driven. And what I found was actually the opposite. What I found was problem solvers, big thinkers and extremely creative people in technology.

In fact, some of the times when I think about the DNA of it and, you know, someone who codes and engineers and the DNA of a composer, they seem so similar. At the end of the day, they think about props in a unique way. We think about innovation. They're creatively trying to tell a story, one through music and one through the product that they create.

And all of a sudden, I realized like, wait a second, there's this other side. And it's also very creative. And my passions could extend deep into the other side of the business as well into this this new frontier. And that's when I drove in heart. And since then, my existence has really been about trying to reconnect the dots between those sides and the importance of the two coming together again.

My entire career for the past ten years has been about how to bring these two sides together in harmony.

Michael: Is that Audigent?

Drew: Yeah. Audigent is a data company. It's a technology company, but on every level, it is a swan song to content creators and to the creative side of advertising. People thought we were crazy. As a data company, we hired a chief creative officer. Like, who does that? Who even thinks about that? And we certainly did.

And it's been one of the best decisions that we ever made as a company to be able to go in and to speak to C-suites, not from the perspective of a technology or not from the perspective of just a meet a media engine, but to really understand that they're storytellers and there's a real brand there and that there's a creative process and that at the end of the day, it's not just about putting an ad in front of a person on a mobile phone but it's about making a deep connection with them because you have the right you've crafted a brilliant message, a big idea that you want to communicate and you've been able to put it in front of the right person at the right time. And they connected with it and they connected with it in a way that that drove outcomes. Right. That's the excitement, you know, behind.

Michael: Well, I want to I want to come back to this because I want to give an example so people are really clear exactly how you work with these brands and how sort of every audience that's a part of this is a winner. But I wanted to go back to something that you were saying about all of the different the convergence of all of these different channels in communication and what that has done in the complexity around that.

Have you seen streaming affect what you're doing You know, we certainly know that Netflix and several of these streaming companies are now putting ads in. We just saw, you know, some of the reports coming from Netflix and their earnings and they talked a lot about this. Do you see that impacting what you're doing?

Drew: CTV is. In general, ads or video ads around CTV, OTT, is just booming. Talk about a recession-proof trend. The growth in CTV is absolutely unbelievable. So, yes, the amount of budget flowing into linear TV continues to go down and addressable TV and CTV and OTT continues to just rocket ship. And I don't think a future is too far away where all where all what formerly was linear television will become addressable. So I think I think everything is becoming digital. Michael, everything is becoming addressable. And the days of unique fast and linear television are numbered. But that creates exciting opportunity.

Michael: And while every marketer should be listening to this podcast because I think that you're very relevant in in the trends and where this whole thing is going. I want to get into then, let's walk through an example so people understand. You work with a lot of major brands. They're dealing with this omni channel mess. How do we begin to optimize this, plan this and be successful and get customers engaged, right?

It's all about engagement. And everyone now is saying, you know, third-party cooking is going away. Original content is going to be incredibly important, more important than it's ever been. Walk us through you know, I'm a brand. I've come to you. I have a problem and I got to get it to market. And you're going to help me.

Drew: Well, I’ll give a great example—call it an anonymous beauty brand. But a beauty brand came to us and one thing I think they did so well was they nailed the big idea. And it's still really important to know as marketers from a creative side, the big idea is alive and well. Brands need to stand for something there needs to be authenticity around that.

And they need to take that step back and understand, hey, we still need to think about how we message and communicate the market. And we still have to think really big about our own brands. But this particular challenge was really interesting is a beauty brand. Their audiences were split. They had millennials and then they had moms. And between the moms and millennials.

Michael: And the moms would they be baby boomers?

Drew: Yeah, they were. They were they were baby boomers. And it was one product. And they said these are two very distinct marketplaces and even though they're not two different products focused, it was one product and they knew they had to speak to two very distinct audiences. So as a company, we were able to go in and help them, one, most importantly, respect the authenticity of the brand and the big idea. But they came to us with a 60 second, a one minute video, and we were able to take that one minute video and create about 60 different assets from that 50 to 60 different assets—half of them speaking to the mom audience and half of them speaking to the millennial audience.

And then from there we were able to really dial into those beauty mavens within each of those audiences. It was a specifically organic product which we really loved, a green product. And so we were really able to dial in to the right audiences using our data sets from our data partners at Audigent.

And we've got incredible, incredible data partners and we were able to find the audiences. We thought that we're able to best connect with those crafted messages.

Michael: Right. So you knew where the intent was, right? So you're looking at intent and you're looking at where those audiences are that have intent relative to this product to get them to convert.

Drew: Correct. And then it was about finding them in a cost-effective way in the right places and putting the right messages. So the millennial messages were reaching the millennial audiences on the devices and within the silos. They were most likely going to interact with those messages. And it was the same with the moms. It was about reaching them in the places, the devices that they're most likely going to engage with the brand and putting the right message in front of them.

It was just an incredibly successful campaign and one that really stuck out for me because there's an opportunity. There's the exact thing when I talk about connecting the dots between the two sides in order to come together was a big creative focus and a big technology effort.

Michael: Yeah. You said something there that was really important was they came to the table with a fundamental strategy that was very disciplined in what they needed to do with their product and to which audiences. And then you go help them execute this in a very precise way. But the important thing was, you know, the strategy upfront. Have you worked with any companies because you hear this in sort of the brand world where they don't have that figured out and are trying to go to market?

And then do you try to help them understand that if you don't have that narrative upfront and that strategy upfront, that, you know, nothing we can do is going to help? Is it do you run into brands like that?

Drew: Absolutely, Michael. I mean, I still think there's resistance to data on the creative side. There's we're still scared of it in some ways. Right. There's an idea that, wait a second, how are the numbers going to inform the big idea and I don't think it I don't think we think about it that way. I think they work very well side by side.

The brand still has to come up with that big idea. The brand still has to mean something.

Michael: Do you ever say to any of these folks, where's your big idea? Like, where's the idea? Where's the narrative?

Drew: Absolutely. And they've got to own that. And it's got to be real. It's got to be real to the product. It's got to be real, you know, that the brand itself. And then from there, it's about expression. Right? And expression is intrinsically creative, right? It doesn't make you less creative. I believe you’re even more creative to be able to take the broader idea and express it and message it in a way that's more coherent for individual audiences.

Frankly, I think that's the exciting part about digital and it's exciting a part about data. And so from our perspective, there is still pushback, Michael. We see it all of the time.

Michael: But I think what you're saying, too, is, well, you better have the creative idea—the organizing principle. You better come with the content because content drives the engagement. We can help you get it to the right audience with precision in the right channel. But you have to figure out what that organizing creative principle is and have the idea and the content. Right?

**Drew:**Yeah. It's not about having 10 ideas for 10 audiences. It's about having one great idea that can be expressed 10 different ways to better speak to different audiences. And that's not a subtle difference.

**Michael:**I can't wait to see this. It’s very exciting, actually, what you're doing. And certainly, you know, when you think about how behaviors have changed in viewing, in listening and certainly through COVID, what we saw is just this dramatic leap 10 years ahead in the use of technology and the consumption of content. And that shifts very quickly.

And what we know is that when there's a big event, a big sort of national or life event, whether it was like 9/11 or COVID, that behaviors get adopted much more rapidly. And we certainly have seen this through COVID. Have you seen changes in in the level of engagement from consumers relative to what you're doing and the channels you're working with due to COVID?

Drew: Yeah. I think there's been a massive acceleration around a lot of the digital platforms. We've had less face-to-face interaction and more interaction on our devices and within our social media platforms. Right? That we've had to dive in harder to feel connected. Right? Whereas before there was so much face to face, more than ever, we're spending time on our social media platforms, on our devices and using that as the means for communication in a world where especially over the past couple of years, that face to face communication has been has been a lot less. Absolutely.

Michael: Yeah. Who is your customer? Because I can see a multitude of people wanting to engage with Audigent. Who is the customer you call on to sort of showcase your capabilities?

Drew: So brands and media agencies are our customers. And what I would say is, I mean, we powered today with our data and products over a hundred thousand campaigns a month, and there is not a major brand or a major sector that's not buying against our data sets.

Michael: But do you have a relationship directly with the brand or just intermediary agencies?

Drew: Both. Sometimes we have we have relationships directly with the brand. And one of the things we've seen is as programmatic had, you know, media buying has moved in-house at a lot of major brands. It's brought us a lot closer to many brands, but we have a lot of media agency partners we have a lot of brand direct partners.

So, really both of them.

Michael: Well, you know, we at TriNet really believe in people. Right? None of this happens without the right talent, the right people. And no matter sort of their gender, age, ethnicity, geography, cultural, this group are a collection of people come together that form these companies as a company like Audigent, and they make it a success. They buy into the culture, they buy into the company and its products in a very emotional way. Where are you when you think about the fact that, you know, 15 million people left the workforce overnight? There are 12 million jobs right now that are outstanding in the United States. And you have now this very competitive environment where the relationship used to be all about the employer.

Now it's about the employee. And what they're looking for about this whole idea of working remotely, what's important to them and how are you dealing with that? Because you're always thinking about retention. You know, you're thinking about hiring the right talent to build success and come in and blend in with your culture in a natural way. Talk to me about how you're dealing with that today.

Drew: Well, I mean, it starts at the highest levels of our organization. Every board meeting we have when they ask me, what is the biggest challenge that you face today, I say the same thing. It's recruiting and retaining top talent. That to me is one of the biggest challenges that we face as the company in many, many companies who are on the same growth trajectory that we are faced.

And we went from 15 people to 100 people in a matter of no time. And that's been one of the biggest challenges that we have. And then it goes beyond that. Once you have those key anchors, how do you especially in light of the fact that we've moved away from office hubs to distributed, you know, work from home environments.

Michael: Are you completely remote, your company?

Drew: We're mixed. We are a mix of remote and office based and for us will always remain hybrid. It's going to, I think, become a new cornerstone of that of being flexible. It's the same thing like you used to have two weeks of vacation now we have unlimited PTO. And that's something that we are committed to as a company.

Michael: And do you find you’re equally productive with this model or more productive?

Drew: We're more productive. Our company’s in explosive growth since COVID. It was in some ways easier for us to come together because it forced us to focus on our employees and what mattered most them. It really shifted our attention to how do we build an organization that puts our employees first, that understands certainly that we're living in very different and challenging times, and that we had to really innovate not just from a product perspective—we had to innovate around a people perspective.

And that became a critical part of our mission and how we were running and operating our company. And it was a huge win for us this year. To be recognized by Fast Company is one of the top ten most innovative workplaces yet.

Michael: Congratulations on that.

Drew: In 2022 and it just, it came out of this cornerstone knowledge that our people are our lifeblood and we need them to live and breathe our mission. And in order to do that we need to put them first. And that really changed the way we thought about things.

Michael: Well that's why I tried that—sort of ran with the organizing creative principle of people matter and they do. Do you find that it's successful for you? Certainly with TriNet, it being a co employer, does that work well for you? Has that helped support what you're doing and attract the right talent and maintain the talent you have?

Drew: Michael, going with TriNet. It was one of the most important decisions we made as a company. Hands-down. We went from being unable to compete with Google and Microsoft and Meta, the big guys. Right? And unable to keep up with the benefits. And, you know, we were losing people, frankly, the left and right to some of these bigger houses and the second we switched to TriNet, we were able to offer something competitive.

It's exciting to be in an entrepreneurial environment, but there's brass tacks at the end of the day, right? People start going through all of those benefits. And if you don't stack up, it's very hard to recruit someone and get them to say ‘yes.’ And it's hard to retain them when someone else knocks on that door and offers them something else.

And since moving to TriNet, our employee retention has just been absolutely incredible. And frankly, our benefits are now on par with any of those big employers. And we're able to offer, you know, an absolutely competitive package.

Michael: Well, that's terrific. That's good to hear. Well, I have to tell you, I've been in media and entertainment most of my career and this is such an awesome product at Audigent. I wish I would have had this like 10 years ago. But here it is. And I think everybody who is looking at the distribution of content and how to do this in an optimized and efficient way should definitely check out your company, Audigent.

I think they're going to find it beneficial and it's exciting to see the developments that you're doing and the scale and the growth. It's a very exciting time for your company.

Drew: I appreciate that. And for us, I think it comes down to some simple principles that we started with. And it was, it was about being virtuous, you know, there was a time in ad tech where they said the good guys can't win. And I always scoffed at that. And now I know that the only companies can win are the ones that are virtuous.

And when I think about what the future looks like for ad tech and data tech and creativity in general, when you know that you need to have the virtuous circle, when brands and agencies are going to win and content creators are going to win and consumers are going to win, you're in one of the most powerful positions that you can be in as a marketer or a technology platform or a creative entity. And so from the very beginning, we said we were going to create a company that made sure that we balanced all three and we've stuck to it and we've stuck to that virtuous mission from day one. And I think it's infused in every single product and every single data relationship that we have.

Michael: I want to end with empathy. Empathy right now is so important in businesses and it's become very topical today, whether you're big enterprise or small business. And you do something unusual, which I think is interesting on Fridays you have a very special Friday, And I want you to talk about what you do on Fridays that's so different that really looks at the culture of your company and the leadership, but also more important, the importance of empathy. So talk to us about Fridays.

Drew: Fridays are sacred day. We have a meeting at 10 a.m. and no one is allowed to book a meeting at that time. It doesn't matter who wants to book a meeting. That's our time together. And we have an all-hands meeting. We don't talk about business. We don't talk about projects. No one's giving reports. We talk about each other and we talk about teamwork.

And one of the hallmarks of our company is an old saying that says it's just business. It's not personal. And we've always said it's the opposite: it's always personal. And it's never just business. And this Friday meeting is one of the cornerstones of our culture. We get together. We talk about what drives us. We talk about the challenges that we have.

We talk about how to stay positive. We talk about productivity and we talk about it as an entire open organization. No hierarchy, right? No pretense, just a company coming together in order to support each other and grow teamwork. And some of the best moments we've had as a company have been in those Friday sessions. I remember one where we asked everyone to write an email, take five minutes at the beginning of the meeting and write a thank you note to someone that changed their career or someone that that helped them out on project or helped them through a challenge.

And we got through that five minutes and we got back together, and then I flipped it and I said, “Okay, I want you to open up your inboxes.” And then one by one, we read the notes that were sent to us. Michael, there was not a dry eye in the house. People reading the gratitude and thanks that other people were praising them for.

To hear that from somebody and to read it out loud in front of other people. We're just one of these moments where we knew this was special.

Michael: And you had an example of one of those moments which I thought was really beautiful. Can you talk about that?

Drew: Happened about four weeks ago. Five weeks ago, we were talking about what drives us in those moments. What is it that deep down drives us to be successful? Why do you want to win was the question that we put out there. Why do you want to win so badly? And one of our teammates got up and said from a small town, my mother is a special needs education teacher. My father didn't graduate college and he's worked for the same company for 40 years. He broke down in front of everybody and he teared up and he said, I'm here every day because I want to win for my mom and dad. I want to win for them. And that's what drives me. That's awesome. Blew us all away. Not a dry eye in the house and it feels just amazing to have that level of vulnerability in a corporate environment.

You know, in an era where so many corporations are homogenizing and taking the humanity out of their businesses, we're running in the opposite direction. We're infusing humanity into everything that we do well.

Michael: And it's why you have the level of retention you have. It's why your company is growing, you know, incredibly well. I mean, just really successful and that you have a product that people in your company are passionate about. You know, Drew, I want to end this with you sort of, we've got a lot of small businesses, entrepreneurs, startups, cottage businesses and people listening to this.

What advice would you give somebody who has an idea? They think it's awesome and they want to start a company. What would you say to them?

Drew: You can't do it alone. People matter. You can come up with the greatest idea. You can come up with the greatest product or the greatest service, but it takes an entire company. In order to move that forward, you've got to be able to share your vision. You've got to be able to create mission and you've got to be able to rally people around that.

People matter the most in making that happen. And you can never forget that. You can never do anything alone.

Michael: This is terrific. Drew, I want to thank you for your time. A lot of insights, a lot of experiences and a lot of advice for people. You all have to check out Audigent. You must go see what they're doing. You can certainly see that online. Drew, I want to thank you so much. Very passionate about what you're doing.

And I can't wait to experience some of your product myself. So thank you again for being here and sharing with us.

Drew: So terrific to be together, Michael. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Michael: I want to thank you, Drew, for joining us today. I mean, this was amazing, the great insights that you provided for small businesses is just awesome. And hopefully people have learned quite a bit. You certainly know about the company Audigent. I want to remind everybody that our podcast, is committed to helping small businesses and their leaders with timely and relevant business content.

We hope you continue to catch our new episodes, new guests on Apple, Spotify and Rise.TriNet.com and YouTube to get relevant SMB news and info. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and to our newsletter. Very important at TriNet.com. Thanks for listening.