Redefining Bedding: From Saving our Planet to a Better Night’s Sleep

Michael Mendenhall: Hello and welcome to PeopleForce Podcast by TriNet. I'm your host, Michael Mendenhall. TriNet is a full-service HR solutions company, committed to empowering small and medium-size businesses by supporting their growth and enabling their people. We work with amazing small to medium-size businesses, and I'm excited to bring their voices to life. Here you can catch new episodes of PeopleForce Podcast every month on Apple, Spotify, YouTube and Rise.TriNet.com.

Joining us today is a trailblazer in sustainable bedding, a driving force behind one of the most innovative companies in the industry. Please welcome our special guest, Kat Dey, co-founder of ettitude, Kat's entrepreneurial journey from founding Try the World, a groundbreaking gourmet food subscription service to partnering with Phoebe Yu to launch ettitude embodies innovation and dedication to make a difference. Ettitude isn't just about creating luxurious soft sheets and bedding. It's about revolutionizing the way we think about sustainability in our everyday lives. Join us as we dive into Kat's inspiring story and the mission behind ettitude to redefine sustainability and accessibility in the bedding industry. Well, welcome, Kat. It's great to have you on the show. We're so pleased that you could take the time out to, to do this. You have such an important mission, so we, we wanna get into that in a little bit, but we want to talk a little bit about your background. You have a very interesting background, so welcome.

Kat Dey:
Well, thank you for having me. Really excited to be here.

Michael: Yeah, let's go. You know you're Russian by background. Yes. And I wanna talk about the immigration piece and, and where you wound up going in the United States. Where did you begin living? And, and give us a little bit of a background there and the adjustments maybe you had to make as a person coming from two different cultures, different languages into the U.S.

Kat: Yeah, where do I start? So, I grew up in Russia in a city called Je, and it's a pretty small city, sub 1 million people. And it's, it's still a pretty developed city with a lot of industry, great universities. And my, my mom is an avid nature lover and you know, we even grew up on a farm in the summer. So that, that's kind of the memories of my childhood are really about city throughout the school year, from throughout the summer. And when I was 13, we decided to immigrate to the United States with my mom and my older sister. And that was definitely quite a change. That was in 1998. And we landed in New York City with very few friends or relatives. There's zero relatives, so we...

Michael: What part of the city, what part of the city did you...

Kat: We first landed in the Bronx, so I was there for about six months, and then we ended up in Manhattan where I lived the rest of my time of high school. And then I moved to Hoboken in New Jersey after college where I lived for another couple years. And then I stayed in New York City and lived all over the place from Queens to Gramercy. And you know, it's kind of, I've lived almost in every part of New York and New Jersey.

Michael: Every borough, every borough plus New Jersey. But, but talk to us about though, you, you probably enrolled in school, so did you have command of the English language when you, when you immigrated?

Kat: No, so I took a few lessons. So typical Russian education does include English or foreign language as a, in primary school. So I did have some background when I arrived, but definitely not fluent. And within a year of going to school here, I just picked it up and became pretty fluent. I would say most kids under the age of 13 pick it up very quickly.

Michael: Yeah. You must have been pretty independent having moved to all these different boroughs while you're going through school, making friends, making new friends, holding on to older friends. How did that work? Because, you know, at that point you have to be pretty self-confident and pretty independent as a person.

Kat: Yeah, so I think I always had very strong confidence as, as a young person. I mean, in the beginning, just as a child, I think that's, thanks to my parents, I was, you know, pretty confident in social situations. But when I moved to the U.S. that confidence definitely took a hit because not only did I not speak English very well, you know, I had a strong accent, didn't understand things, didn't know how to express myself very well. But also we, you know, we lived in a, you know, a pretty rough area of Manhattan, and I felt...

Michael: Well, the Bronx.

Kat: ...a bit embarrassed. Well, first in the Bronx, but then I lived in East Harlem, so I felt a bit embarrassed and, you know, I didn't have all the things that my classmates had. So I really had to craft, you know, a different type of personality of how to create, you know, confidence in myself and, you know, feel like a, a person of value. And I think it came through the arts. I actually really enjoyed visual arts as a high school student. I enjoyed music as well. I played the piano and photography. And so actually in high...

Michael: I wanted to say, I think some of the best schools for art, music, even dance, are in Russia, in Moscow.

Kat: Absolutely. There's a strong culture, of course, for music and dance. My mom is a trained pianist, classical pianist. So I'm so grateful to be given that gift of musical education when I was young and throughout my teenage years. So I think it's just such a joy in that I will definitely also pass on to my kids.

Michael: So, so you've gone through school now. Are you, what was the last place you lived before you went to Columbia?

Kat: I was actually, we were still living in East Harlem when I got accepted into Columbia, and then I lived on campus for the four years that I was there. I also studied abroad for a year. So that was an amazing fun year in Europe. I actually lived in Paris for most of that time, but I did go back to Moscow and that was kind of, kind of my first back trip back to Russia after immigrating to as an adult or as a, as a basically an independent person.

Michael: Yeah. But so you were in the arts, but you didn't necessarily study that at Columbia. So what, what, what was there, was there a different interest you had at that point saying, you know what, I love this, I love being able to do it, but I have an interest over here that I think is more compelling.

Kat: Yes. So I think I was just very much interested in all sorts of arts. So whether it's visual arts or, you know, literature, writing, I did journalism my entire high school, I was participating in a program. We were the first online magazine run by teenagers in probably the world. And, you know, did a lot of public speaking about that program as well. So when I went to Columbia, I wanted to absorb as many subjects that were interesting to me, mostly cultural and, you know, cultural subjects. So I ended up actually majoring in comparative literature, which enabled me to study anything I wanted.

Michael: Well, that's awesome.

Kat: Film, you know, literature of different cultures, languages. So I studied French. I studied Spanish.

Michael: How many languages do you speak?

Kat: Oh, you know, I would say I'm only fluent in Russian and English, but I took French for a long time and I lived there for a long time and it became fairly fluent. But since I haven't really used it in the last, I don't know, 18 years, it's not...

Michael: Well the magazine thing, the magazine thing followed you because you, you became, I believe an editor at the Columbia, what is it, Daily Spectator?

Kat: I was, yes, for a while. And also another magazine, which was actually focused Slavic culture.

Michael: But, but so, so now you're, you're you, you're going to graduate, right? And you, you want something to do and someone talked you into, well, listen, you know, the broadest thing because you have now this broad background, whether it's in the arts and literature and culture. Now you, you, you, you define that by going in and becoming a consultant because it would give you opportunities to see, again, many things, many things in business that you could apply yourself to. Talk to us about that transition. So you've, you're, you're graduating now, you have these many different experiences, and I think that's important because a lot of people really believe, like when you think about like, oh, I wanna be a doctor, I wanna be a lawyer, I wanna be, they get down a path, they, you know, and it's probably pretty linear and, and you find a lot of entrepreneurs of which you are, have had a tremendous background in multiple experiences and, and have a broader depth to all of that. Tell us about moving from being a graduate of Columbia into consulting, what you learned and what you saw that connected you to your first sort of entrepreneurship.

Kat: Yeah, so you, you nailed it. The reason why I chose consulting is because it did enable me to learn so much from various industries all at once and very quickly. And that's the reason I chose it, is because I didn't have this vision of what I wanted to do professionally. You know, I didn't want to be a lawyer. I didn't want to be a doctor. So some of these more traditional paths, and I had sort of eliminated journalism for myself because I wanted more, I love storytelling, but I thought that I could do more. And so consulting was the right choice for me because it basically was the most creative thing you could do in business. That's, a friend of mine told me this, and she got accepted into McKinsey and kind of just explained to me why she chose that career path. And for me it was kind of too late for the senior recruiting process that usually happens on campuses. So being an entrepreneur, I kind of found a startup consulting firm that was accepting interns towards the end of graduation. And I really, I really enjoyed it. It was so fun. It was at first really scary because I had a fear of picking up the phone and cold calling people. And that was part of my job there. I actually had to do surveys to collect data on a specific industry, and I feared it so much, but by the end of the internship I was like the best cold caller. So that was amazing. And after that, you know, I ended up going into Thomson Reuters to do strategy there internally for, you know, the businesses within the, the, huge conglomerate at Thomson Reuters. And then I, after getting my feet wet in consulting and kind of feeling like, “Okay, I've learned how to grow or how to recommend how to grow businesses or how to restructure them or how to collect data, how to analyze data.” I wanted my next role to be more aligned with my own values and my own passion. And at the time, my passion started to develop in food. So I ended up going into Weight Watchers to do strategy there and really loved it. It was, and it's, it's an amazing company.

Michael: What period, what period was that? What period of time was that?

Kat: Thousand? I think I left in 2012, 2014. Somewhere around that time.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

Kat: So just, just at the time when Weight Watchers announced a partnership with Oprah, right before that, so we had a few celeb partnerships at that time, but we really learned how to grow the old line business of, of Weight Watchers, which was just such an incredible growth period for the company and a transition period from primarily a physical service business to now a software and content business. And that was just so amazing to see. But also I realized that for the rest of my life, I want to work only on projects and businesses that have a positive mission because I could see how energized every single employee was at this company when we saw customer success.

Michael: So it was a very strong culture.

Kat: Very strong culture. So a very strong mission with a purpose that people really believed. It was exactly, it was this, it was if you, you were, you own the business, you have to take ownership of the business no matter what level of an employee you are. And I think that's what you're, you're seeing is people took ownership of it.

Michael: It wasn't just a place to go for a job, right?

Kat: Yes, absolutely. It was, it was amazing to see. And also I think the culture is something that I take into my future companies as well. It was very analytical, very collaborative, very inclusive. So I just enjoyed the leadership style of that company.

Michael: So that led you, you, you met a partner in the, at this company.

Kat: So even before, so while at Weight Watchers, I had a side gig, which was basically an expression of my desire to experience as many cultural cuisines as I could while in New York City. And that was called Weird Food Club. It's a blog that I started in a, an adventurous eaters club of people who would go with me and experience and taste some of the most bizarre dishes they could have. And this is really the era of Anthony Bourdain. Andrew Zimmer. People are really excited about this, and it was just a fun thing to do, but I also realized that there is a curiosity and a demand for international cuisines outside of New York City, but of course very vibrant in New York that is not being serviced. And I went to Columbia to get my MBA and met my then co-founder who aligned with this vision and this mission of bringing international cuisines to as many people as possible and really bridged the cultural gap that people have to educate people about other cultures through food. And so we started our first company called Try the World, which is a subscription service that sends you a curated box of international artisanal gourmet foods to your doorstep. And every month was a different country.

Michael: Now are these, are these, are these pre-prepared or is there, how, how is it...

Kat: So these were packaged foods, so non-perishable foods, so things that would bring the cultural flavor to your dish. So for example, you can source your veggies or, you know, proteins locally, but that what makes the cuisine so unique is really the sauces they put on or the special spices or the condiments or the chocolate or the drinks that they drink. So those are the special flavors that we wanted to bring to people's doorsteps. It also made it much easier on the supply chain that we didn't have to ship things in, you know, cold storage. And of course, more climate friendly.

Michael: Well, that and, and you sold that company?

Kat: Yes. So in 2017, after being named number three fastest growing company in New York, we ended up selling the company to another food subscription service that continues to operate it.

Michael: Do you still get some of it?

Kat: Yeah, I've been subscribed and it's really fun to see how the company's evolving and what new snacks they're able to find from around the world.

Michael: Oh, that's, that's fantastic. And so after, after that success, now you've moved on, you still wanna be in this sort of social space where you're doing good and providing a service and a product that is about whether it's end of life or sustainable in what you're doing. How did you move from that then into your new business and your new venture?

Kat: Yes. So after exiting, I started to do consulting for a variety of early stage companies. I didn't know what I wanted to do next, but I was on a hunt. I was hunting for the next big thing that I could lend my operational and marketing skillset to. And, you know, there were really a number of different companies across different industries, you know, I was like, all right, maybe I should try, you know, computer vision. I worked for a computer vision company for a little bit, but then I realized that consumers really my sweet spot and something that I'd love to stick to. And it came across ettitude on AngelList. Phoebe Yu, who is the founder and CEO of ettitude, had spent four years in research and development. She is a textile expert, and she developed a new type of fabric that is not only luxuriously soft and breathable, but is a lot more sustainable than conventional materials, especially a lot more sustainable than cotton. And so she used this fabric to create bedsheets and ettitude stands for eco attitudes. So for her, the brand has always been focused on sustainability. So I came across ettitude on AngelList. She sent me the sheets from Australia where she was based, where she started the company, and I had the best sleep of my life. They were so incredibly soft and so breathable. I felt like this was a breakthrough consumer product that has so much potential. And not only is it great for health, because people can sleep better, and we later proved that scientifically, that people actually do get 10% improvements in quality of sleep with ettitude, but also it is the healthiest fabric for your skin because we use absolutely zero harmful chemicals in the growing process as well.

Michael: Yeah. I think talk about that because I think that's important because you're using less water, you know, the product is sustainable. Walk us through that, the, the product makeup and, and what it is you're doing that is far superior to what cotton sheets would be.

Kat: Yes, great question. And that's all the questions I had to ask Phoebe before joining the company as a co-founder and and president. So basically, the process, which is a proprietary process, is a lyocell method of processing organic bamboo. What does that mean? Basically, bamboo is an amazing sustainable plant that we have. It is the fastest growing plant on earth and it grows completely organically. So no fertilizer, no pesticides are required. It grows a hundred percent of rainwater as opposed to something like cotton, which is the dirtiest plant we have. It requires a lot of pesticides, a lot of fertilizer, and a ton of water. It is the thirstiest crop. We have diverts fresh water from farming, growing food for us. So there are a lot of issues with cotton. And as a feedstock, bamboo is an amazing alternative. However, people didn't know how to turn it into fiber for textiles without the use of extremely harsh chemicals before. So if you've seen bamboo, t-shirts, bamboo socks, and other bamboo sheets on the market before, they're using an old technology of processing bamboo that is unfortunately using very toxic chemicals such as caustic soda to dissolve the bamboo and turn it into fiber. And caustic soda is so harsh that it can dissolve a human body in three hours. So it's actually not sustainable. So you're starting with something that's beautiful and ruining it with a toxic chemical that is harmful for the workers, that is bad for the environment. It's leaching into the environment. It's not a closed loop system. There is a lot of water wastage, a lot of energy wastage as well. And the resulting fabrics are not deemed to be healthy or sustainable. So what Phoebe has done is we at ettitude, we use lyocell. It's a new method of processing cellulose that uses non-harmful food grade solvents to dissolve the cellulose from bamboo. You can put your hands in it, nothing will happen to your hands. And the resulting fiber is not just more sustainable and healthier but preserves more natural qualities of the plant itself. So you end up getting with a product that is more durable, that is better at moisture wicking, that is better at breathability. So all these things you actually want to carry through into your finished textiles. And so once Phoebe explained that to me, I was like, I'm amazing, you know, checks my boxes, you know, the sustainability, the health aspects, the mission driven aspect of it, and the fact that we can build a brand on all of these points. And so we did with ettitude, we grew very quickly.

Michael: Where are you based now? Where are you based?

Kat: We're based in Los Angeles. So first I started working with Phoebe remotely. She's in Australia, in Melbourne, I'm in New York City. The time zones are extremely difficult to coordinate. You know, somebody has to wake up at 6:00 a.m. and stayed until 8, 11 p.m. working on the phone. So it was quite challenging to maintain that. So we decided to put our global headquarters in LA. LA is amazing because of the time there's, you know, more hours that overlap...

Michael: You're still a New Yorker. You're still a, you're still a New Yorker.

Kat: Still New Yorker. I definitely feel like it, but I am enjoying living here in LA. And the beautiful sunshine.

Michael: Well, it's pretty amazing. Where, so you started with two of you, how many people now are employed by ettitude?

Kat: We're about 20 people as a team. So we've definitely grown quite a bit. We were named Inc, 5,000 Fastest Growing Company twice in a row, which has been amazing. And we also were named Best Company for Company Culture, something like that by Built in LA. And how, so we're really proud of the...

Michael: How do you find...

Kat: ...culture that we built as well.

Michael: Yeah. You have a, you, you certainly are very mission driven. You've built a culture with her that really is about the sustainability. Is it easy or hard for you to find employees that embrace that, that have that same passion around your purpose?

Kat: The mission actually makes it so much easier to find employees and retain them and motivate them. Like you mentioned before with Weight Watchers, everybody felt like they contributed something and we're part owners in the company and its outcomes. So I think mission is extremely important to have that kind of engagement with your team. And so when people feel that everything they're doing, they wake up in the morning feeling that they have a positive impact. So even if they're doing something and I get to do a lot of boring things in my job as well that I don't want to do, but I know that it's going to eventually contribute to a better result and better outcome.

Michael: You, you brought up Weight Watchers, you've been in and out of consultancies, you know, successful companies selling a company now on track with another very successful company. What have you learned through all of that? I mean, they're very different disciplines that you were doing and it's sort of an accumulation of experiences that provide you with your capabilities now, today. What is it that you learned from being that diverse that makes it important in what you're doing today?

Kat: Well, I think running a business requires a broad understanding of a lot of disciplines, because you are all of the departments at once. When you're starting your business, you're wearing all of the hats. So you have to know a little bit of everything. And then as you grow your business, of course you're going to bring in experts into their fields. And that's when you know things are going well, when other people know more than you do. So, yeah, it's all about bringing together an amazing team.

Michael: And, and through all of that, did you have any hurdles? Because there's always, you know, as you think about entrepreneurs and their business, and sometimes it's five years, sometimes 10 years till they really start hitting their stride and having huge success and really turn, you know, the profitability into something that's, you know, sustainable. What, what is it that you saw that would be helpful to other entrepreneurs that are listening? Things that you found that was like, well, that was a hurdle we had to get over. Oh, we, we needed capital here and we talked to these people and they told us this, this wasn't going to work. And in fact it did. And were there any, any issues like that in your career that would be beneficial to share?

Kat: Yeah, I think every entrepreneur goes through ups and downs. You know, testing things, seeing if it works and if it doesn't work, pivoting doing something else. And it's really about just having that mentality of both running a sprint and a marathon.

Michael: Yeah, that's smart.

Kat: You're essentially sprinting to the next project, but you always have the long-term vision in mind. And because you're running a marathon, 'cause you, you're trying to create something big, you also have to maintain enough stamina for that. So you don't wanna burn through too much of it. You have to have a balance. At the same time, with early-stage companies, you can't take too long. So a lot of things need to move very quickly. So just test and learn. If things are not working, move on.

Michael: But, but in a company like ettitude, you could very quickly say, we're in sheets now we're gonna go here and we're gonna, we're gonna have another product line in a different category. And you could get distracted pretty quick before you seed your original concept of bedding. Do you find that you have to have the discipline and the focus saying, we have to do this and do it really well before we start adding on other type of products and other categories. Do you find yourself struggling with that or you've guys very focused on what it is you're doing now?

Kat: Yes, so great question because that's exactly what we did. We nailed bedsheets, it's an amazing product. We also have incredible, you know, everything that goes on the bed. So the duvet covers as well as the actual duvets, they're so comfortable. They're made with our clean bamboo, which is our trademarked fiber. So instead of using polyester for example, that most comforters are with, they're made with our biodegradable clean bamboo that's really breathable. So we've nailed the bed and so we kept hearing from customers, oh, your sheets are so comfortable. I'm just like lounging in them. I'm wrapping myself in your sheets. They're just so silky smooth

Michael: Robes, robes.

Kat: Yes. So we actually did end up launching a lounge wear line, which I think was beautiful. And it, you know, it's, it's, you know, still available in some places, but we it at the wrong time.

Michael: Yeah.

Kat: We launched it post-Covid after everyone has gotten way too much lounge wear, you know?

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Kat: They've been, they've been living in sweatpants for the last two years. So by the time we launched it, the consumer demand just wasn't there. And also it stretched the company in ways that we did not expect. So for example, we did have to acquire absolutely new skills. We've never done apparel before. And now jumping from home goods to apparel, we needed to hire new people that understand how to do design and fit and pattern making and all of that. And making sure that we have a broad enough selection as an inclusive company of sizes, for example. So it kind of ballooned our inventory too. So it put a lot of pressure on the company at a difficult economic time. So definitely a mistake or learning rather that, you know, before you take on a big challenge like that, I think it's important to understand the dynamics of the market, but also make sure you have enough money in your war chest in case it is a problem.

Michael: Well. Well, and then as then as you said, the complications, I mean, you know, you have certain size beds and, and it is what it is, right? You got the queen, the twin, the right, and so it's pretty specific, but you're talking about people's body types and patterns. Boy, that gets complicated pretty quick. So I can appreciate what you, what you went through there, but I wanna get back...

Kat: So it's basically launching a new apparel brand. It went well, but not quite as well as we would've liked. So what we realized in 2023 is we're going to stick with home goods, but we know there's demand for sustainable, high quality, high performance materials in the apparel space. And so actually as of 2023, we now supply our patented materials to the apparel industry.

Michael: Perfect.

Kat: Let them figure out the fit, let them figure out the trends, the beautiful designs we're not designing here.

Michael: So, so more, more, more, more B2B.

Kat: Exactly. And so we want to be the supplier of the fabric. To replace the conventional materials that are currently on markets such as cotton, toxic visco, you know, even cashmere, which we've now developed a special plant-based cashmere alternative that is gorgeous.

Michael: Oh, that's terrific. So, well what brands are, are purchasing that? That sounds very interesting, the cashmere piece.

Kat: So we just launched this process about eight months ago, and already the brands that we're speaking with are telling us they've been waiting for something like this for 10 years. I don't wanna announce any of the names because they're under NDA and until they're in market, we really can't speak to it. But what's amazing is that they're, you know, we're working with the top luxury brands from Europe. We're working with...

Michael: Oh, this is gonna be very exciting. I can't wait to hear.

Kat: Yes. Intimates brands. You know, men's wear brands, because really anyone who uses fabric is looking for high quality, sustainable solutions. And it's a big problem, especially in Europe and now in the United States with regulations that are coming down. People are starting to realize, wow, fashion is the second most polluting industry.

Michael: Yeah, that is. And and consumes a lot of water.

Kat: Consumes a lot of water. Toxic chemicals releases 10% of CO2 globally. So it's a big problem.

Michael: I wanna go back now to the sheets and the bedding. How many colors, you know, a lot of people look for, you know, the colors of the bedding to match their decor. How do you guys approach that? Is it vegetable diet? Like how do you think about colors and how many you offer with your product?

Kat: Yeah, so we do have a beautiful selection of different colors for our bedding line. We have about 10 to 15 at all times. And we have seasonal colors that come in. Some are limited edition. We're actually about to launch, I think it's pre-ordered now, available, a beautiful red color that is called prosperity. And specifically for a API month, we launched that to celebrate Asian culture. It's a very limited edition. Most of the time people select neutral colors. So the most popular color is white for bedsheets. And the second most popular is gray. So not surprising there, but you know, there are certain people that definitely enjoy the beautiful colors that we offer, especially those with a design eye. They're very unique and inspired by nature. Every color usually has a story. So we do look at design trends to inspire our color selection each year. And typically they're nature inspired. We use all non-toxic, low impact dyes. They're not vegetable dyes because we do wanna make sure there's a consistent color tone to the whole batch. Yeah. Versus, you know, if you do use vegetable dyes, there might be inconsistencies. It is something we're looking into. Even like bacteria, dyes, those kinds of things.

Michael: Well, I've ever heard of that. That's interesting.

Kat: Yeah, there could be very fun, interesting, you know, color design choices in the future.

Michael: So where do we get your product?

Kat: Ettitude.com is the best place to find the biggest selection and the best prices. And we actually even made a special coupon code for this audience, which is TriNet easy to remember. You get 20% off,

Michael: So you just say TriNet. That's it.

Kat: That's it. That's the coupon code: TriNet.

Michael: So everybody, there you go. You gotta get on and use TriNet. I, I think some of colleagues are gonna be doing that after they get off of this hearing how special your product is and how healthy it is. And I did wanna talk, one other thing about your product is you have things that will keep you cooler, it will keep you warmer. Talk to us about that. 'cause that, that seems to be a big thing in mattresses today.

Kat: Hmm. Yes. So definitely a lot of people suffer from being too hot. And I'm a cold sleeper and my husband is a hot sleeper. So that is a problem for a lot of married couples. They're fighting over the thermostat, they're fighting over the duvet or the blanket that they're using. And then also, of course, some people like the flat sheets, some people don't like the flat sheets, but temperature regulation is absolutely key to good sleep. And with ettitude's, clean bamboo textiles, they're actually superior at temperature regulation.

So that sounds like a fancy term, but basically it keeps your body at the optimal temperature for sleep. Because the yarns that we use and the fiber itself is so fine, it enables air to pass through much better between the fibers, which means that it keeps you, it releases the heat from your, from your body into the outside environment. And that, that's why it feels cooler for people that feel hot. But me as a cold sleeper, I feel very comfortable as well. It's got this, you know, enveloping feeling. It's not hot like a flannel would be, or like a polyester would be very not breathable and you would feel sweaty. So this for a cold sleeper feels incredibly comfortable as well. But of course our hot sleepers are just obsessed with ettitude because not only is it cooling, but also moisture wicking, which means that you don't wake up in a pool of sweat.

Michael: That's, that's fantastic. I wanted to put that in before we end. You know, again, everybody, it's TriNet is the code for a discount on the product. I think that's fantastic. I wanted to just end with you sharing just one thing that you would say to entrepreneurs who are thinking of starting a business in the middle of one. What, what would you suggest to them as something they should think about or do?

Kat: I would recommend not giving up. So I think the entrepreneurial journey is a tough one and it is very easy to give up. And I don't mean that you need to continue doing the same thing that you're doing that's not working. I mean, continue doing something. Don't give up and leave the dream of entrepreneurship. Continue trying things. And also talk to as many people as you can about whatever you're doing, whatever problems you're experiencing, because you will most likely find a solution or somebody that can help you out, or somebody that can direct you in a different direction or give you an idea, inspire you, that will help you to pivot. So that's my advice.

Michael: That's terrific. Kat, it's so wonderful having you here. I want to thank you for being a TriNet customer. We appreciate being able to support you and help you grow your business. And what a great concept, a great idea. And I hope everyone goes out and supports you and buys some of these sheets. 'cause you'll probably sleep better and probably be better at work actually.

Kat: Yes, yes, yes. If you can get out of bed and actually make it there on time.

Michael: Yes. Yeah, this is true. All right, Kat, thank you so much for being with us.

Kat: Thanks for having me.

Michael: I want to remind everybody that our PeopleForce Podcast by TriNet is committed to helping small businesses and their leaders with timely and relevant business content. The PeopleForce Podcast drops new episodes every month and we hope you continue catching our new episodes on Apple, Spotify, YouTube and Rise.TriNet.com. To get relevant SMB news and info, make sure to subscribe to our podcast and to our newsletter at TriNet.com/insights.