A Discussion with Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. of SHRM on the Role of People Managers

Burton Goldfield: Hello, I'm Burton Goldfield, President and CEO of TriNet.

My guest is Johnny C. Taylor, President and CEO of SHRM, the Society for Human Resource Management.

And today we are going to discuss the very important topic around people managers and the important role they play in every organization.

Johnny, thanks for joining me and welcome.

Johnny Taylor: Good to be here. One of my favorite topics.

Burton: It's always a pleasure. I'm heartened to see that the increased focus on diversity, equity and inclusion across businesses, large and small, is increasing. In fact, I am hearing the DE&I professionals are now in great demand.

What is your perspective on how well organizations really understand what DE&I is?

Johnny: Wow. Yeah. That's a mouthful, right? Let me tell you... So, Tale of Two Cities. Okay.

Burton: You and I both.

Johnny: That’s right.

Burton: We're going to go at this one, because I believe the health of an organization is directly related to the quality of the first line managers.

Johnny: And the research that we conduct absolutely affirms that. And confirms it without a doubt. Employees are reporting to us: I liked the company; I even liked the CEO, but I'm leaving because of my people manager.

Burton: Right.

Johnny: And we are seeing, I mean, it's overwhelming that the people manager and by the way, even if the person doesn't leave you, what's worse is that they quit and stay.

Burton: Right, right.

Johnny: So, if you're investing in an employee, who's not bringing their best, their A-game, to work because they are not being managed properly, then you, that's almost worse than them just leaving.

Burton: Right. And what are the components of a great people manager and what kind of research are you guys doing in this area?

Johnny: The number one issue is empathy. People want empathetic people managers, and here's the problem, Burton. We educated people not to do that. When you go to management school, it's like focus on the business, their personal matters are their personal matters. And now that there's been this, this sort of—people have combined work and personal lives and their family lives and they become one. There's no, it's non-existent, right, this line. People managers haven't been brought along in that. So, when someone comes into the office, for example, and they're crying, they had a fight with their spouse, their kid failed a test, whatever.

Burton: Right.

Johnny: And you say, I don't want to talk about that. Let's do my work. That's your personal matter. That lacks empathy.

Burton: Right.

Johnny: And we're not talking sympathy. And that's where people get confused. Yes, you can be sympathetic or not. But at the end of the day, listening to the employee and saying now tell me what you experience. And I may not be able to do anything about it, perhaps I can, but even if I can't, at least listening to you is what the employee wants. And that is using empathy.

So number one, people managers have to be... The empathy muscle has atrophied, right? And so now we've got to start strengthening it and using it again. That's what employees are telling us.

The other thing is consistency. Employees are very frustrated. That one, you treat one person differently than another person.

Burton: Right.

Johnny: So, they're like, listen, not that I want rules, but this is crazy. And what people managers don't understand, here's a little secret I'll share with you. We use the term equality in the workplace when we really should use equity.

I tell my employees, I am not guaranteeing you that I'm going to treat you the same as that person. You're different. What motivates that person versus what motivates you is different. And so I'm going to make sure that it's equitable, right?

That's what... those two things, people managers are struggling with. Empathy, using it, knowing when to use it. Because to be fair, for so long they were told not to get involved in people's personal lives. Right? And then this idea of treating your people equitably.

Burton: Very interesting. And what I also hear is my manager does not follow the culture of the company.

Johnny: No question. No question. And that's, listen, I don't, I even less blame the people manager for that, than I do upper management.

Because if you say, as the CEO of TriNet, listen, this is our culture, this is what, how things work around here and the person doesn't follow it, the people manager doesn't, then they shouldn't be a people manager. So, that's on you to be fair.

Burton: Well, this is fascinating. So, a couple of key points that you're making. One is around the difference between equality and equity. And I think that's an important point because people are very different.

If there was a cookie cutter approach to dealing with people, everybody would use it.

Johnny: And we did it for so long.

So, you know, the idea that, Johnny, our office hours are 9 to 5. But if I have a mother who drops her kid off at 9:30, because the daycare doesn't open until then, then she should be allowed to come at 10. And I shouldn't be concerned that the other employees say, “Well, that means I can come at 10.”

No, it doesn't. It means she may stay til 6:00, she may work through her lunch, whatever it is. So, it doesn't have to be equal. It doesn't have to be the same. It needs to be equitable.

Burton: Well, this is such an important topic. I appreciate your perspective on it. And I believe if more companies focus on frontline management and making sure the alignment is there with a culture, the vision, companies will be stronger and be enduring in the future.

Johnny: Let me say one other thing, though. We have to have... we have an obligation, as executives, to help better select people managers. We have this really bad habit of you're a great engineer, so now you're going to be the manager of engineers and you go up.

And what we know is people management is a unique skill. Not a soft skill. It's a business skill. And some people, no matter how good they are at their job will never be great managers.

So we have to figure that out and then put people into roles to try to develop them into people managers. That's our job.

Burton: So my belief is that you can train people to be people managers, if they have the right core values and if they have the right motivation. They have to be motivated to be people managers, but the skill set can be taught.

Johnny: And as you know, everyone's not motivated to be.

Burton: That is correct. That's right.

Johnny: That's what I'm getting at. I don't think that people can't learn to be. To your point, I one hundred percent agree with you.

I do think that sometimes we're asking people to do what they don't...

Burton: They don't want to do. I agree one hundred percent. And it's a very important job. It's a job that has tremendous leverage on delivering on the on vision of the company. But you need to put the right people in the right roles.

Johnny: Precisely.

Burton: Thank you so much.

Johnny: Thank you.