Financial Inclusion and Social: Change A Conversation with José A. Quiñonez

Burton M. Goldfield: Welcome. I spend a lot of time talking about the needs that need to be filled by small and medium businesses here in the U.S. My next guest is simply incredible, a MacArthur genius who is addressing the issue around financial wellness. And there's 45 million people in the U.S. who live in the financial shadows, without access to credit, an inability to rent an apartment or open a bank account. And José will talk to you about his Mission Asset Fund, which has allowed access for people who did not have that access before. Please welcome to the stage, José.

José A. Quiñonez: Thank you.

Burton: José, I talk about my passion for TriNet because I get to work with people like you.

José: Oh, thank you.

Burton: And you have an amazing story and you've honed in on a very important problem. Can you first define what financial insecurity or security is?

José: Yeah so when we started the Mission Asset Fund, the idea was—how do we help low-income people, particularly immigrants, improve their financial lives? And at that time, 16 years ago, the conventional wisdom was that, well, just give them more financial literacy, another class, another shiny brochure on how to balance the checkbooks, on how to save and how to not spend so much. But in really thinking about the realities of the population that we're serving, we noticed right away that actually, these folks are actually very financially savvy already in the way that they manage their money, and the way they think about their money, and the way they even manage their family finances here in this country, and even abroad.

And so we knew that it wasn't that we needed to come at them, not from like, oh, you don't know enough. You're illiterate, so you don't know. I'm going to teach you how to do this or that. Instead, we knew that we needed to do something that they were already doing with their finances. And so, it wasn't about trying to get them to do, you know, something different, it was about how do we meet people where they are and then build upon what is good in their lives. So that's how... so we kind of started that... you know, we approached the problem from a different angle altogether because ultimately, we all need to improve the way we manage our money.

Because ultimately, we all need to improve the way we manage our money, right. I mean, we all need to learn how to balance, how to save. We all need to figure that out. But it's the way you provide that information to people that is really important.

Burton: So as it relates to inflation and the changes that have occurred over the last couple of years, how has that impacted the population that you are directly dealing with?

José: Yeah, well one of the realities of people in the shadows, people that are pushed aside, people that are at the margins of society. I mean, they deal with crisis after crisis. I mean, right now it is about how do you buy more with the little that they have. I mean, inflation is real. It's a big problem for people that they see that increased prices of food, of transportation, costs of gas and so forth.

But you have to also realize that they just came from another crisis of COVID. These are the folks that were asked to leave their jobs at no fault of their own. They're people that lost hours at their jobs, people that really saw a dramatic decrease of income because of COVID. So that was another crisis. And the crisis before that was something different. So these are folks that live crisis after crisis. So our approach to it is this, is that how do we show up to help them prepare for the next one, right? You know how to because we can't really solve inflation ourselves, but it's more like how do we know, what are the strategies?

How can they sort of survive this crisis in preparation for what's coming next? Because when folks are in the margins, they have very little support. And so, yes, there's a problem, but we always have to think about how do we build the resiliency so that they can be ready for what's coming next?

Burton: How do you think it affects people, humans to go from crisis to crisis in their lives?

José: I'm an immigrant myself. My family were immigrants. We know that life and, sometimes you have to step back and say, "well, that's just life," right? We have to sort of take it for what it's worth, but we have to sort of provide people with a sense of hope. A sense of progress that even another crisis will come, but as long as there's some improvement in their lives, even if it's small, but as long as there's a progress, there's improvement so that there's hope within that. And I think that's what kind of keeps people going from one to the next, because people are not in despair. They're not like hiding in the closets or curled up in a corner anywhere. No, they're still showing up. They're still vibrant. They're still in life, in society. But it's about reminding them about that, reminding them about our human spirit and how we are resilient human beings, right.

So that way we can keep going. So I think about that a lot because it's not just about, "Oh, you need to save more money. Oh, you need to balance your checkbook here." It's not about that. It's about how do we remind ourselves of the power that we have as human beings so that we can continue moving forward?

Burton: It feels like people are not as connected as they used to be. Do you have a perspective on the connection between humans here in the U.S. and around the world?

José: It's interesting you say that, because I think for immigrants, we really are more of a transnational entities. Or beings, if you will. A lot of people know what's happening in this country, but they also know what is happening in their hometown, back where they were born, where they were raised. They know what is going on there. And I think that the internet, information I mean, people, even Facebook or WhatsApp groups, I mean, it has kept people closer together because they are able to interact a lot easier nowadays. So even though there's a lot of disconnection in current society here, I think people have found ways of maintaining their connections. I mean, let me tell you this. I've been watching a lot of videos and I'm, maybe I'm sharing too much here, but I am a sucker for videos of immigrant families reuniting.

Burton: Right.

José: And then they show those videos all the time where people haven't seen each other for 10, 15 years. And then they find ways of reuniting. And then, and that in my mind is like, oh, that connection that they have, the love they have with each other is still there after years and years of not seeing each other. But they still do it. And it's a beautiful thing. Again, it's like a reminder of our human the human resilience and force and love that we have, that just because of distance might be there, that doesn't really necessarily have to mean they will have to sever those connections with people.

Burton: Right, right. So I shouldn't be pessimistic. People are communicating and they're optimistic and trying to help each other.

José: Yeah, I mean, I think definitely not pessimistic. I believe we are born. We're in this society. We're in this place in this time to use all of the resources that we have to our disposal, all of the technology, the new technology, the new innovations, the new everything.

Burton: Right.

José: And this is a question about how we're going to use that in order to help people do what they can better. And I think we have so much more now than ever before. So personally, I'm not pessimistic. I'm hopeful. But then the question is about, well, how do we put that to action? What are the innovations that we can create in the service of poor people so that they are the ones that, that we're building, innovating for so, that we can help them realize their dreams and aspirations right now? And that's something that we are doing at the Mission Asset Fund, like I'm building products, services in a financial space with our clients in mind solely, right. Because typically, you mentioned people living in the financial shadows. I mean, I think immigrants, low-income individuals, consumers they're essentially like our secondary users of the financial products and services that are built for more wider, richer communities, right?

I mean, just for example, like take checking accounts, banks and credit unions, they have, checking accounts that require people to leave some money in the account in order for that account to be free. So if you imagine some banks actually require folks to have like $2,000 or $3,000 at times in order for that account to be free. But for poor people, they can't afford to have two to three thousand dollars, just sitting there. And so they actually have to pay $20 a month.

Burton: Right.

José: Just to have that account. And so for people like us, we can afford to just have the money there and then we have that account for free. And so that account for example, is an example of how that service is not made for them.

Burton: Right.

José: It's made for us, but they're the ones that are paying for it. And so we need to kind of create, again, products and services that are specific to them so that we can actually help them develop and improve their financial lives.

Burton: I know you have an interesting perspective on somebody as an hourly worker versus owning their own business.

José: Yes.

Burton: Can you talk about that and also how you're helping people to own their own business?

José: Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean, one of the things that we've learned over the years of working with different people, we ask them, we're always serving trying to figure out what is happening in their lives. How are they coping with the challenges? What are their strategies to improve their financial lives? And one of the key questions we ask them, how confident are they about their financial lives in the next three months? And we noticed in some of our surveys that the people that actually created or started their own business, whether it is for themselves or themselves and their spouse that those folks tend to have been more financially confident about their financial status than people that did not.

And these are folks, you see again, we work with primarily immigrants. And so we noticed that we're like, oh, those are the folks that are again, they're starting, because they feel like they're more and more in control of their financial lives. That they can actually, are the ones that are decision makers about how much more time to invest in their business or what other things to bring.

And so we, that's something that we're leaning in on now as an organization. So actually how do we help more people do that? Or even provide even more help to the people that are starting their own, their small businesses with loans, with technical assistance, with some sort of like in a connection, so they don't feel so lonely, because, as you know, being the CEO of a big company could be a lonely enterprise. It is so much more for small business owners because they're sort of like they reduce themselves just to that enterprise. So, we want to kind of create more connections with them because we want to elevate them. We want to sort of start it, because they're sort of like the economic engines of our communities, right? So we want to make sure that we show up to them and support them in any way we can.

Burton: I find the whole issue around control fascinating. Can you define that a little bit more as it relates to your clients?

José: Yeah, I mean we asked that question because we knew that that getting to this magical land of financial security, it really is that. It's magic, right. It all depends. I mean, because you can be a person with a million dollar income, but if you have in that effort, three million, then you may not be so secure.

So we had to ask, the idea is that, well, within the context of your own life. In the context of all the challenges how do they feel in control? So, we really don't define it as such, but it's about their own personal sense of their ability to manage their financial needs and obligations.

And so, but that's how we kind of get the real picture of where they're at. So it's not us assuming or implying or having them sort of go through some logarithm to say you're five or how are you feeling about your financial lives? And, of course, we all have challenges and there's not the question of us solving all of the problems, but it's about like, well, let's make you feel a little bit better.

Make you feel a little bit more in control with more information with better tools and make them feel like they're making progress towards their goals. So as long as they're doing that, they actually feel much more confident about that. And I think as an organization, that's ultimately what we want to do, because I guess we're not going to engage with our clients forever. We engage with them for maybe two or three years, but as long as they have a feeling of confidence that things are going forward together, then we're setting them up in the right direction.

Burton: Does the number 45 million seem daunting to you?

José: It's been daunting for the past 16 years I've been doing this work. And it is a sad reality that we, as a society, we sort of accepted that to be what it is, because I think it's a travesty, frankly, that we haven't used more of our innovation, more of our technology, more of our financial system to really bring more people into the fold.

Because really, we cannot be a financially secure nation, frankly, when we have millions of people just out in the margins. I think we are less as a society, less economically speaking with having people diminished financially. So I think it's a travesty that we sort of just accepted that, but we're doing all we can to make sure that the people that we serve can actually feel that they can empower themselves moving forward.

Burton: How do you measure success? I talk about KPIs. What do you do at the end of the day to say this was a good day, a good week, a good month, a good year as it relates to the population that you're addressing?

José: It's a great question. And for us, I mean we're a nonprofit, right? And we have to operate under different sort of dynamics. But I think for my personal definition of success, it's trying to change the way people think about poor people. It's about changing the way that we think and relate to poor communities in this country.

Burton: Right.

José: Because typically, we sort of blame them for their own poverty. As a society, we sort of say that they're in that situation all because of them. Because they didn't make the right choices. They didn't go to the right schools. They're not reading the right books. Or they're just buying too many lattes. I mean, literally, we have said that. It's like, they're buying too many lattes. But, to me, it's like, actually, no. It's not their problem. It's not only that. There are more systemic issues that we need to also take into account. And so, I try to change that conversation so that way we can truly change not just the way we think about it, but also provide products and services that can truly help individuals move forward.

And so it's also not about thinking about people as broken human beings, that we never relate to them. Actually think about them as resilient, as powerful individuals. For immigrants particularly, again, they're managing money across nations in multiple denominations, right? So they know more about how to manage their money than we do, but yet, because we belittle them, we never give them credit for what they're doing.

Burton: Right, right. Well, you're making a big difference. You're talking to thousands of entrepreneurs. What can small businesses do to help these individuals if they're so inclined?

José: I would tell them to follow your lead of actually providing services.

Burton: Right.

José: Thinking about the clients, I think TriNet has been phenomenal, where you help small businesses and startups. And that's how we found you, because we were a startup organization.

Burton: Right.

José: And we're like, we need help. And you were there to help and you were there to provide us with the tools, the mechanisms and the systems to actually allow us to flourish in and what we're doing. I think it's the same thing. It's like when we're talking about clients, individuals, it's also about meeting what they need, creating the tools so that they can then flourish themselves individually.

So, but I would say that I think we need to remove our blinders and not be so I guess thinking about them in particular ways, more like we have to sort of meet people where they are without our own sort of notions of them or the ideas or stereotypes if you will, but frequently by really truly trying to be a colleague and a partner. And so that way what we bring to the table, right, is valuable just as what they bring to the table as well.

Burton: Well, I love the way you said that because we have the nonprofit vertical. The organizations, the nonprofits around the U.S. have a unique set of problems and you need that unique service. And it's the passion around what you're doing that comes through today that makes me gratified that we can help more nonprofits. And helping organizations like you, as you said before, lifts all of society. It's not the 45 million, it's the entire population within society. And I'd like to shift gears for a second and ask you about where your passion comes from and a little bit about your background, being an immigrant here in the U.S.

José: Let me take a sip for that.

Burton: Yes.

José: Well, I mean I think it's really the same passions that you have in trying to be a changemaker. Again, we're in this moment.

Burton: Right.

José: We're here. How do we make the best of it? Right? And of course, we all maybe started in different times, different places in society, but that doesn't really matter as much in terms of like what we're trying to achieve in this world. And so early on, thankfully I had some advisors, some mentors that allowed me to think in those terms so that I can make the best of the opportunities that I have before me. And also, thankfully, I came to this country in a time where the U.S. was not as anti-immigrant as, or was a little bit more confident in ourselves as a country.

Like, I remember it was President Ronald Reagan that allowed for immigrants to come out of the shadows through an amnesty bill that he signed back in ‘86. And that's how my family were able to kind of get ourselves with legal status. But it was at a moment in time when the country was, again, confident. And I don't think we're there, not as much anymore, but because of that, I've sort of seen my trajectory as more like, well then cause I had that opportunity, then what can I do to help immigrants like me to do what they can in their lives in a similar way?

Burton: It's an amazing story and I wish there was more people like you. Do you see the country and the world becoming more inclusive or less inclusive over the next 10 years?

José: Yeah. Again, this is where I'm not pessimistic. I think, I believe and hope, right? I believe that our world is, there's more connections. We are learning more about each other and I think that's a good thing. Right?

Burton: Right.

José: And also we're appreciating each other in different ways. Now, of course, there are other forces that don't like that, and there are forces that have been there and that will be there because there's a lot of people that don't like change. I remember this one story of an older woman that went to her phone company provider because this phone company changed her area code and then she was like, I don't want to change this area code. I like my 408 area code, and she just didn't like change. And I was like, I remember thinking about the sort of thing like, oh, that there are people that don't like change. Now, it's not all of us. There are some people that don't like that. And I believe that there are more people that are embracing of the diversity, embracing of that richness.

They're embracing of knowing more about other people that are confident in who they are themselves in order to embrace the other. And so, I believe that we're getting more and more in that situation. Again, there's forces that don't like change and we have to recognize that, and some of that is definitely, they're the headliners that we read about, or the different political leaders that are trying to steer us in that direction, but I think that the forces on our side are even more powerful, because how can you not embrace richness and more possibility?

Burton: Right, right. I like when you talk about meeting people where they are, not talking down to them and say, "I'll teach you how to do this." You seem to have a very personal connection with the people that you guys serve, and that's working for you. How has Mission Asset Fund changed since 2007 when you founded it?

José: Oh my god, it changes every year, and I love that aspect of our work, that it's not static.

Burton: You like change.

José: I do like change. Did you notice that? It's just that in this world, it's all about change. Right? That's like the one constant in the universe, is change. And I embrace it because it's always towards progress. As long as it's change towards making us better, then I'm all for it.

So at MAF, we started with this idea of like, how do you help poor people improve their financial lives? And I'm like, that's a great question. How do you do that, right? Particularly, when people have no checking accounts, or no credit scores, no credit reports. How are you going to build somebody's financial lives when they don't have, like, the most basic of financial tools? And so we set out to kind of create those tools to help them actually realize those things. But then we realized that getting a credit score or having a credit report is important, it's fundamental, but it's not enough.

When you lose your job, when you're asked to, like, not come into work, right? Or when in a pandemic when we're all forced to work from home. And so what we did at that moment, we actually then started an emergency grants program. Again, not having any money ourselves, but we said, no, we need to figure out how to channel emergency money, grants to people that we knew were going to be excluded from receiving any federal assistance.

And in the course of four years, we raised like over $100 million from different foundations, corporations, individuals. I mean, McKinsey Scott came in with a $45 million contribution to help our efforts in disbursing money to people all over the country. And so we kind of went from like building credit building products to like doing emergency grants to people.

And so we had to like quickly do that. And now we're trying to figure out, well, how do we help people that are in the small business space build and improve their operations? So, we're constantly trying to create new ideas or new products to meet people where they are, because it's not just about one solution or one product, but it's about having an array of different products built with them in mind.

Burton: I love that. So as a CEO of a company impacting people's financial lives, I know this is not the community you address. But what's your advice to CEOs and people who are building small businesses, maybe a tip or two about financial security, because your point was a good one. It's not how much you have in the bank, it's how much you owe, less how much you have in the bank.

José: Yeah that's a good question. To me, it's really about themselves. Like, what is the driving force behind their operation? Because we can get into a conversation about money, how much, and all that. But to me, it's that it leaves the most important resource or most important valuable asset, which is their passion and their dreams. So as entrepreneurs, we're always trying to prove something, right?

Burton: Every day.

José: Every day.

Burton: Every day.

José: You're doing it. And I think that drive, that passion is like the most valuable thing that can propel an organization forward because that's what attracts other people. I mean, that's how you've attracted your whole team, right? It's your vision, your passion and the same thing with MAF and other nonprofits where that passion is so important. So my advice is to make sure that you protect that. Make sure you nurture that, make sure you elevate that in some way, because if that goes away, if that diminishes in a way, or if that gets compromised in some way, then you diminish your own ability to create something.

So I think about that daily, actually, where I meditate, I try to protect myself, I try to figure out, well, what is it that we're trying to create here so that that way, when I show up at work, when I show up in my own personal life or professional life, I can try to be as authentic as I possibly can so that way we can continue doing the work that we're doing.

Burton: Well, you are an inspiration to me. Thank you. You've had an impact. And I believe myself and many of the people listening are struggling to have that impact, not only on our own company, but on the world around us. I feel so blessed and so fortunate. I feel fortunate that you're a TriNet customer and that I get a chance to take some of your energy and inspiration. And I talk about how much I love my job because I can talk to people like you and I would just want to say I appreciate you. I know the folks that you're impacting greatly appreciate your long-term vision and the impact you've had on their lives. And I believe it absolutely changes society and we are going to make a better society, but it's hard every morning when I read the headlines, so I'm going to be honest with you.

José: It is hard. And I do want to take a moment to thank you for what you built with TriNet because honestly, HR stuff is not something that I've ever wanted to know about. It's like, I don't want that in my head with all due respect, but I feel like with your business, with how you've created it, you've allowed me to focus on my own passions, knowing that we work together, we're building something. But again, this is about taking all the tools, all the technology, all the resources that are available to us and then wielding it to make sure that our passions are realized.

Because the headlines are still going to be bleak. They're going to get bleaker in the future. But they won't be as bleak as our human potential, as our human drive to improve our environment, our world. Because that's what we are as human beings. That's like, that is what we have at our core.

And that's what we set out to find new places, new challenges and that is never going to be diminished. So, no matter how bleak the headlines, I think we are much bigger for that. And the question is, can we find each other so that while we can work together to do something and I think in this society, whether how connected we are with each other, I think we're doing it.

But it does take work, it does take resources, it does take something more to make sure that that actually comes to pass.

Burton: Well, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate knowing you. Yeah, you're an inspiration.

José: Thank you.